Deb, Lots I don't know!. . .


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Posted by CJR on August 18, 19103 at 12:27:56:

In Reply to: Well Jean you know.......... posted by Deb on August 15, 19103 at 23:58:40:

Will be pleased to see any pictures of BLB hens. The one of hen (81W) on my website is still the only one I have that shows much about the color of mature BLB female. It is hard to photograph. (She is out of the Splash hen that I was able to bring from Holland in 1992--and I gave the other first-born to Roy, Dusty, and some other breeders). She was four or five years old when that picture was taken and I think this year will be 11 years old. (most of her eggs have tissue paper shells now, but 1 egg is incubating by a truly glamorous young LB ). She changes color a little each year, but still has a good BLB female color. Her last daughter (2001) is one of two hens I had sent to Ric, that survived the slaughter at Ric's barn. I weep for several that I relucantly parted with. I have a BLB granddaughter that is most promising and will be hatching from her next winter. Did I send you a picture of her pen with her BLB brother? Without the CLBs, I spent a little more time on BLBs with the same qualities as the LBs. First BLB chicks of the hatches are promising, but very young. So do post your BLB pullet pictures and will have a look. Had a note from Holland about the color of the wingbay on the BLB male. I will ask more about this, as I am not certain of the correct color! It is easy to assume that whatever color comes, is the right one!
Found your website: CHICKENCHRONICLES@ groups.msn.com and will send along a couple of corrections directly to you. LOTS to brouse and will do it in time! Wow, a lot of information and finally a glimpse of some of your family! Great!

You asked about color of hackle on the LB males. It should in no way look BBRed~ but is a wonderful glowing color. England describes it as a gradual transition from orange to light orange-yellow (with greenish-black stripe.)

I wish you could see the exchange of information that takes place at Shows or breeder visits in Holland. Pick up any two birds and talk about their good points (so anything "not good" might need improvement.) If you "accentuate the positive" you will improve your birds! Better than tearing down the "not good" birds or the people who raise and show the "not good"! "They" are all having fun (I think) but should not influence the breed type. We do not have any perfect Dutch, and are just doing our best to try to get all the good stuff on one bird (and then it can go poof when we breed that great bird--but maybe NOT--maybe a better one will hatch!) That is the challenge!

With the heat and drought of this summer--nothing you don't know about--and the smoke from the fires, it has not been a comfortable summer! I look forward to frost and even SNOW and cool sweater-weather! And it could come any day! CJR


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: Well Jean, I would simply prefer to get a handel on just breeding good type right now LOL seriously though I am very pleased with the pattern on the BLB hens. I took some pics and will take some more as soon as these thunderstorms let up. Will put them up on my site, you did get the link? I think it's at the bottom of this post. I would like to see a better consisitancy in the pattern on the backs of the BLB hens. More defined with that nice bluish tint in the tails. I think I may have hatched out some nice prospects last year.
: Tell me though Jean on the LB hens the hackle on some is a tad orangish what is causing that. Just a few are questionalble.
: Oh Crawfords book went woosh right over my head in parts, and Jeffreys's gave me indications as to what accedental mistakes I had made by crossing the golden LOL those days ares gone Jean.

: I love the millie , mottled and spangeld patterns in fowl, would love to see this pattern on Dutch just for the fun of it LOL but I am not that energetic or smart enough to under take that project. With the new dutch you have afforded me I am just aiming to take my time and perfect. Who's knows maybe someday Ric and I will face off at a show wouldn't that be a hoot.
: I am still trying to grasp this tail thing and the feathering qualities. Such a difference a strain makes. Well the obvious is crossings that have been done with unmentionable breeds lol but we do need to keep in mind that feather quality and all its finer points can be the strain we are breeding from and to continually perpetuate those finer qualities.
: Have not heard from Brian on the history of the Dutch , do you think I put my foot in my mouth once he discovered it was your lines I am expanding on lol He may have seen your pics on my site. LOL I may not be too smart but I have smart friends LOL Do you think he ment some breeders crossed with Phoenix in aims to increse tails or that the Dutch were created from the Phoenix. Kinda like which came first the chicken or the egg? When you look at some of the historical prints of the bantam jungle fowl you can easily see the influence they had on the Dutch. I even went and did some reading on the Dutch trading ships and such in the indegenous areas. How I wish there was just more information. but I do expect that the wonderful Holland breeders will keep us posted, some of us do appreciate their dedication. History is rich.

: And yes Jean more discussion! Lots more discussions!

: Deb


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: : Deb, If Crawford's book was divided into breeds or breed types, it could be more useful for those of us who are used to getting such intense information in a schoolroom format. It is very difficult to ferret out the factors that the Dutch can use. (and it is already outdated by new revelations --looking forward to revised editions) In Holland, there are geneticists who have concentrated on the Dutch Bantam Breed--and for many years! So far, I know of no text that has been translated that is useful for us. H. Gankema's VERERVING VAN VEERKLEUR (Inheritance of Feather Color) is the most simple--perhaps too simple to use for exhibition Dutch breeding, but an excellent primer.

: : If your main guide is: Jeffrey's BANTAM CHICKENS or Jeffrey/Richardsons "OEGB as Bred and Shown in the U.S.", you will not find it useful in breeding Dutch, except as resouce material, but not as a model to use.

: : The Patrijs (Light Brown) Dutch certainly show a relationship to the Bankavia family of Red Jungle Fowl, right down to the white fluff at the base of the tail (and this is not a fault, but a grand heritage of their origins). Other Jungle Fowl of earliest times, have different variety patterns. I am working on better type for my MilleFleur Dutch (Holland-bred) and instead of crossing to OEGB MilleFleur, which are not very good at best--and would only create a totally different type of bantam, not Dutch, I have done a little variety crossing within the Dutch. The patterns are beautiful! And I have two cockerels that are brilliant black tailed red/orange, with lighter "shield" buff breast pattern like a Jungle Fowl cock that my daughter photographed at the Singapore Zoo. ( Sent those pictures to Dusty to see, and did not get them back)--have not ever gotten duplicates from my daughter--but have a request for them. These cockerels are out of a (BLBxMF) hen that is best described as Blue Wheaten. The Jeffrey book give a hint that Wheaten can be a factor in Black tailed Red--so it is just a hint of what genes are expressed in these birds. These are Dutch with no outcross to other breeds, just mixed Dutch varieties--never recommended except for gene exploration. Others are close to Dutch, Red Columbian variety, (in their background in Holland) and these, I will work with a little longer. The Blacktailed Red birds are dead-end--will not be continued, but have been enlightening. I might work with some of the MFvarietycrosses further, but I am getting a number of pleas to go back to breding the Geelpatrijs as bred in Holland. With limited space, this would be a more satisfying endeavor,as I understand the genetics of CLB--I have only 2 Geelpatrijs hens left and several of their CLB youngsters--all promised. So will have to start from square one! But these hens are a better beginning than the original Swavers that appeared in LBs years ago, already with muddled genes, as I know the heritage of these hens! Will send one to Ric Ashcraft as soon as the weather moderates--as he has the suitable cock for this hen--and so I will begin again with just ONE hen of known breeding!

: : Poultry is a grand challenge--and Dutch Bantams one of the finest!

: : If we could only talk about our Dutch Bantams, sharing information, with open minds, instead of about the people, who seem to have closed minds--what a great thing it would be!!

: : CJR

: :

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: : : Yes Jean I am aware of the different types of molting factors. and like yourself I beleive (from what I have read) much is dictated by the breed and strain of the fowl exhibiting this. Jean I read two articles concerning some of the starnge molting genes and some say that they are recessive genes from the red jungle fowl, is this true? No I was not in agreement that possibly the longtails of Japan had influenced the Dutch. First thing that caught my attention was the geographics. Totally different indigenous areas. but I wasn't going to debate I am not smart enough for that LOL I felt kinda dumb though LOL Like I should know this. They may have been cross bred by private individuals for particular imporvements but I do not think the small long tails are the founding stock. I was just very suprissed at what was shared. I do hope Brian sends me anything he has aquiered in type and resources on the subject.He is going back quite a distance in history. I was under the assumption that fowl such as the Dutch were decendnts of the Bankiva. Well if information is shared I will certainly to let you in on it LOL
: : : Oh I thought it was about time I unveiled one of the projects I have been working on, like we need another lol

: : :
: : : Deb


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: : : : Deb, Brian has a great article about the Phoenix and reference to Onagadori in July "Poultry Press". Cy Hyde was on both Stromberg Poultry Tours I attended, and I spent some time with him, examining the Longtails at the Hannover Show, where he was especially interested in the Silvers at the time. There is absolutely nothing that I have ever read about the longtails that could link them (and certainly never by tails) to the Dutch Bantam. The moult gene is different in different breeds of poultry. It is not a universal given. There can be differences in "lines" within breeds on holding tail feathers and tail moult, as separate from body feather moult. And, of course, some birds can do this annually, some more than once a year, some go much longer without losing what we call "condition". Some birds go "bare naked" for their summer moult, and others do it gradually. This is within the breeds--and I do not believe it can be linked to heredity reaching back to any early period of history.

: : : : There is so much we do not yet know about these genes--these wonderful birds!

: : : : I have always been interested in spur type on our Dutch males, I do believe I can id some breed outcrossings by the shape, color, hardness of the spur of the Dutch cock! But I have never been able to generate any discussion about it.

: : : : CJR

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: : :
: : : : Jean it was Brian Reeder who passed on this information to me. Curious and I asked him to foward me the source and any information he had concerning this theory.
: : : : : You know I was going to come to you with it. It came up because we were discussing tail genetics. I told him that I had never read any information in this regards.
: : : : : He had commented he did not know much about the Dutch and then presented me with this on the forum. He is claiming that the dutch may carry the molting gene.

: : : : : Deb

: : : : :
: : : : : : Deb, Interesting! Nothing in what is presented here, fits the history of the Dutch--as the Dutch people and others, present it.
: : : : : :
: : : : : : The Dutch Bantam is a True Bantam--the Phoenix is not.

: : : : : : The Japanese traded in the areas of Asia where the true bantams are presumed to have originated, long before and during the age of the great Sailing ships and trade with Europe with the Dutch--and Portugese, Italians, others, was important both before and after Japan closed ports to foreigners. The Jungle Fowl undoubtedly went to Japan.

: : : : : : The Edo period (Edo became Tokyo)is known as a period of Japanese isolation--a very stormy period.

: : : : : : The name Bantam is associated with the SE islands.

: : : : : : There are Jungle Fowl in todays Singapore Zoo that are identical to todays Dutch Bantams.

: : : : : : The Phoenix is not a true bantam, having a large counterpart. And the body shape is totally unlike the Dutch Bantam, legs are long, tail long, not at all shaped like the Dutch tail. There does not seem to be any record of the Phoenix or other birds of this type (ei.Sumatras) being common in Holland/Germany in early times.

: : : : : : Dutch crossed with Pheonix--today--look like Phoenix.

: : : : : : The Crown Prince of Japan has been writing a History of Poultry, with origins. It may be published by this time, I have not heard. It is possible that an author of that country would add information that other sources have not already published.

: : : : : : No one really KNOWS the beginnings of Poultry FOR SURE, and subsequently, the orign of what we call breeds. Bill Platt was deep into origins when he died. He left his files to Elio Corti, who has published 3 volumnes in Italian on the subject.

: : : : : : I do not find this brief presentation compelling information, but I do not know, Deb! Who is this source??

: : : : : : CJR

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: : : : : : : I have been discussing some tail genetics and this was passed on to me;

: : : : : : : I know the early and developmental history of the Dutch bantam. The Dutch were the only Europeans who had trade with Japan during the Edo period. They thus imported many unusual forms of Japanese (and other oriental) bantams. The Dutch bantam descends from early small shokoku and proto-ohiki-like birds (in other words, longtails) that were imported to Holland in the 16 and 1700's. They were then bred over other small bantams from European extraction and other parts of the orient to create the early forms of the Dutch. It is the longtail genetics that give the better lines of Dutch the full, longer tails. Thus they practically are just a phoenix bantam, by another name. Same leg color, same earlobe color, same full, multiple feathered tails. All that is missing is the extra length and the name, lol. They have the exact same lines of descent as many lines of phoenix bantam and many lines of phoenix bantam were made with Dutch and imported longtails. The phoenix bantam was just made in other countries (Germany, England, the US, ect) from later imports. They all descend from shokoku one way or the other, as it was the original longtail in Japan, imported from China over five hundred years ago.

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: : : : : : : Deb




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