Posted by CJR on August 10, 19103 at 16:58:43:
In Reply to: Re: Jean can you comment on this? posted by Deb on August 10, 19103 at 12:50:03:
Deb, If Crawford's book was divided into breeds or breed types, it could be more useful for those of us who are used to getting such intense information in a schoolroom format. It is very difficult to ferret out the factors that the Dutch can use. (and it is already outdated by new revelations --looking forward to revised editions) In Holland, there are geneticists who have concentrated on the Dutch Bantam Breed--and for many years! So far, I know of no text that has been translated that is useful for us. H. Gankema's VERERVING VAN VEERKLEUR (Inheritance of Feather Color) is the most simple--perhaps too simple to use for exhibition Dutch breeding, but an excellent primer.
If your main guide is: Jeffrey's BANTAM CHICKENS or Jeffrey/Richardsons "OEGB as Bred and Shown in the U.S.", you will not find it useful in breeding Dutch, except as resouce material, but not as a model to use.
The Patrijs (Light Brown) Dutch certainly show a relationship to the Bankavia family of Red Jungle Fowl, right down to the white fluff at the base of the tail (and this is not a fault, but a grand heritage of their origins). Other Jungle Fowl of earliest times, have different variety patterns. I am working on better type for my MilleFleur Dutch (Holland-bred) and instead of crossing to OEGB MilleFleur, which are not very good at best--and would only create a totally different type of bantam, not Dutch, I have done a little variety crossing within the Dutch. The patterns are beautiful! And I have two cockerels that are brilliant black tailed red/orange, with lighter "shield" buff breast pattern like a Jungle Fowl cock that my daughter photographed at the Singapore Zoo. ( Sent those pictures to Dusty to see, and did not get them back)--have not ever gotten duplicates from my daughter--but have a request for them. These cockerels are out of a (BLBxMF) hen that is best described as Blue Wheaten. The Jeffrey book give a hint that Wheaten can be a factor in Black tailed Red--so it is just a hint of what genes are expressed in these birds. These are Dutch with no outcross to other breeds, just mixed Dutch varieties--never recommended except for gene exploration. Others are close to Dutch, Red Columbian variety, (in their background in Holland) and these, I will work with a little longer. The Blacktailed Red birds are dead-end--will not be continued, but have been enlightening. I might work with some of the MFvarietycrosses further, but I am getting a number of pleas to go back to breding the Geelpatrijs as bred in Holland. With limited space, this would be a more satisfying endeavor,as I understand the genetics of CLB--I have only 2 Geelpatrijs hens left and several of their CLB youngsters--all promised. So will have to start from square one! But these hens are a better beginning than the original Swavers that appeared in LBs years ago, already with muddled genes, as I know the heritage of these hens! Will send one to Ric Ashcraft as soon as the weather moderates--as he has the suitable cock for this hen--and so I will begin again with just ONE hen of known breeding!
Poultry is a grand challenge--and Dutch Bantams one of the finest!
If we could only talk about our Dutch Bantams, sharing information, with open minds, instead of about the people, who seem to have closed minds--what a great thing it would be!!
: Yes Jean I am aware of the different types of molting factors. and like yourself I beleive (from what I have read) much is dictated by the breed and strain of the fowl exhibiting this. Jean I read two articles concerning some of the starnge molting genes and some say that they are recessive genes from the red jungle fowl, is this true? No I was not in agreement that possibly the longtails of Japan had influenced the Dutch. First thing that caught my attention was the geographics. Totally different indigenous areas. but I wasn't going to debate I am not smart enough for that LOL I felt kinda dumb though LOL Like I should know this. They may have been cross bred by private individuals for particular imporvements but I do not think the small long tails are the founding stock. I was just very suprissed at what was shared. I do hope Brian sends me anything he has aquiered in type and resources on the subject.He is going back quite a distance in history. I was under the assumption that fowl such as the Dutch were decendnts of the Bankiva. Well if information is shared I will certainly to let you in on it LOL
: Oh I thought it was about time I unveiled one of the projects I have been working on, like we need another lol
: : Deb, Brian has a great article about the Phoenix and reference to Onagadori in July "Poultry Press". Cy Hyde was on both Stromberg Poultry Tours I attended, and I spent some time with him, examining the Longtails at the Hannover Show, where he was especially interested in the Silvers at the time. There is absolutely nothing that I have ever read about the longtails that could link them (and certainly never by tails) to the Dutch Bantam. The moult gene is different in different breeds of poultry. It is not a universal given. There can be differences in "lines" within breeds on holding tail feathers and tail moult, as separate from body feather moult. And, of course, some birds can do this annually, some more than once a year, some go much longer without losing what we call "condition". Some birds go "bare naked" for their summer moult, and others do it gradually. This is within the breeds--and I do not believe it can be linked to heredity reaching back to any early period of history.
: : There is so much we do not yet know about these genes--these wonderful birds!
: : I have always been interested in spur type on our Dutch males, I do believe I can id some breed outcrossings by the shape, color, hardness of the spur of the Dutch cock! But I have never been able to generate any discussion about it.
: : CJR
: : Jean it was Brian Reeder who passed on this information to me. Curious and I asked him to foward me the source and any information he had concerning this theory.
: : : You know I was going to come to you with it. It came up because we were discussing tail genetics. I told him that I had never read any information in this regards.
: : : He had commented he did not know much about the Dutch and then presented me with this on the forum. He is claiming that the dutch may carry the molting gene.
: : : Deb
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: : : : Deb, Interesting! Nothing in what is presented here, fits the history of the Dutch--as the Dutch people and others, present it.
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: : : : The Dutch Bantam is a True Bantam--the Phoenix is not.
: : : : The Japanese traded in the areas of Asia where the true bantams are presumed to have originated, long before and during the age of the great Sailing ships and trade with Europe with the Dutch--and Portugese, Italians, others, was important both before and after Japan closed ports to foreigners. The Jungle Fowl undoubtedly went to Japan.
: : : : The Edo period (Edo became Tokyo)is known as a period of Japanese isolation--a very stormy period.
: : : : The name Bantam is associated with the SE islands.
: : : : There are Jungle Fowl in todays Singapore Zoo that are identical to todays Dutch Bantams.
: : : : The Phoenix is not a true bantam, having a large counterpart. And the body shape is totally unlike the Dutch Bantam, legs are long, tail long, not at all shaped like the Dutch tail. There does not seem to be any record of the Phoenix or other birds of this type (ei.Sumatras) being common in Holland/Germany in early times.
: : : : Dutch crossed with Pheonix--today--look like Phoenix.
: : : : The Crown Prince of Japan has been writing a History of Poultry, with origins. It may be published by this time, I have not heard. It is possible that an author of that country would add information that other sources have not already published.
: : : : No one really KNOWS the beginnings of Poultry FOR SURE, and subsequently, the orign of what we call breeds. Bill Platt was deep into origins when he died. He left his files to Elio Corti, who has published 3 volumnes in Italian on the subject.
: : : : I do not find this brief presentation compelling information, but I do not know, Deb! Who is this source??
: : : : CJR
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: : : : : I have been discussing some tail genetics and this was passed on to me;
: : : : : I know the early and developmental history of the Dutch bantam. The Dutch were the only Europeans who had trade with Japan during the Edo period. They thus imported many unusual forms of Japanese (and other oriental) bantams. The Dutch bantam descends from early small shokoku and proto-ohiki-like birds (in other words, longtails) that were imported to Holland in the 16 and 1700's. They were then bred over other small bantams from European extraction and other parts of the orient to create the early forms of the Dutch. It is the longtail genetics that give the better lines of Dutch the full, longer tails. Thus they practically are just a phoenix bantam, by another name. Same leg color, same earlobe color, same full, multiple feathered tails. All that is missing is the extra length and the name, lol. They have the exact same lines of descent as many lines of phoenix bantam and many lines of phoenix bantam were made with Dutch and imported longtails. The phoenix bantam was just made in other countries (Germany, England, the US, ect) from later imports. They all descend from shokoku one way or the other, as it was the original longtail in Japan, imported from China over five hundred years ago.
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: : : : : Deb
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