Re: Jean can you comment on this?

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Posted by CJR on August 09, 19103 at 14:23:12:

In Reply to: Re: Jean can you comment on this? posted by Deb on August 09, 19103 at 12:06:44:


Deb, Brian has a great article about the Phoenix and reference to Onagadori in July "Poultry Press". Cy Hyde was on both Stromberg Poultry Tours I attended, and I spent some time with him, examining the Longtails at the Hannover Show, where he was especially interested in the Silvers at the time. There is absolutely nothing that I have ever read about the longtails that could link them (and certainly never by tails) to the Dutch Bantam. The moult gene is different in different breeds of poultry. It is not a universal given. There can be differences in "lines" within breeds on holding tail feathers and tail moult, as separate from body feather moult. And, of course, some birds can do this annually, some more than once a year, some go much longer without losing what we call "condition". Some birds go "bare naked" for their summer moult, and others do it gradually. This is within the breeds--and I do not believe it can be linked to heredity reaching back to any early period of history.

There is so much we do not yet know about these genes--these wonderful birds!

I have always been interested in spur type on our Dutch males, I do believe I can id some breed outcrossings by the shape, color, hardness of the spur of the Dutch cock! But I have never been able to generate any discussion about it.


Jean it was Brian Reeder who passed on this information to me. Curious and I asked him to foward me the source and any information he had concerning this theory.
: You know I was going to come to you with it. It came up because we were discussing tail genetics. I told him that I had never read any information in this regards.
: He had commented he did not know much about the Dutch and then presented me with this on the forum. He is claiming that the dutch may carry the molting gene.

: Deb

: : Deb, Interesting! Nothing in what is presented here, fits the history of the Dutch--as the Dutch people and others, present it.
: :
: : The Dutch Bantam is a True Bantam--the Phoenix is not.

: : The Japanese traded in the areas of Asia where the true bantams are presumed to have originated, long before and during the age of the great Sailing ships and trade with Europe with the Dutch--and Portugese, Italians, others, was important both before and after Japan closed ports to foreigners. The Jungle Fowl undoubtedly went to Japan.

: : The Edo period (Edo became Tokyo)is known as a period of Japanese isolation--a very stormy period.

: : The name Bantam is associated with the SE islands.

: : There are Jungle Fowl in todays Singapore Zoo that are identical to todays Dutch Bantams.

: : The Phoenix is not a true bantam, having a large counterpart. And the body shape is totally unlike the Dutch Bantam, legs are long, tail long, not at all shaped like the Dutch tail. There does not seem to be any record of the Phoenix or other birds of this type (ei.Sumatras) being common in Holland/Germany in early times.

: : Dutch crossed with Pheonix--today--look like Phoenix.

: : The Crown Prince of Japan has been writing a History of Poultry, with origins. It may be published by this time, I have not heard. It is possible that an author of that country would add information that other sources have not already published.

: : No one really KNOWS the beginnings of Poultry FOR SURE, and subsequently, the orign of what we call breeds. Bill Platt was deep into origins when he died. He left his files to Elio Corti, who has published 3 volumnes in Italian on the subject.

: : I do not find this brief presentation compelling information, but I do not know, Deb! Who is this source??

: : CJR

: :
: : :
: : : I have been discussing some tail genetics and this was passed on to me;

: : : I know the early and developmental history of the Dutch bantam. The Dutch were the only Europeans who had trade with Japan during the Edo period. They thus imported many unusual forms of Japanese (and other oriental) bantams. The Dutch bantam descends from early small shokoku and proto-ohiki-like birds (in other words, longtails) that were imported to Holland in the 16 and 1700's. They were then bred over other small bantams from European extraction and other parts of the orient to create the early forms of the Dutch. It is the longtail genetics that give the better lines of Dutch the full, longer tails. Thus they practically are just a phoenix bantam, by another name. Same leg color, same earlobe color, same full, multiple feathered tails. All that is missing is the extra length and the name, lol. They have the exact same lines of descent as many lines of phoenix bantam and many lines of phoenix bantam were made with Dutch and imported longtails. The phoenix bantam was just made in other countries (Germany, England, the US, ect) from later imports. They all descend from shokoku one way or the other, as it was the original longtail in Japan, imported from China over five hundred years ago.

: :
: : : Deb

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